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all right it's uh it's a it's a real

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pleasure to introduce uh germano de

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brama

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um someone's whose research i've been

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following for about 10 years but i've

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never actually met so

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um germano is a physicist and worked as

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a researcher

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in various institutes and companies in

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rome between 1998

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and 2014 on near-earth asteroid

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population modeling and deflection

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his research activities and interests

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also include special relativity

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classical electrodynamics and the

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history of the philosophy of physics

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he currently works for the italian

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ministry of education as a physics

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teacher he is the author of the books

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the impact clan in 2015 and probing the

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limits in 2017.

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uh germano

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please um

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thank you

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it's a real pleasure for me to be here

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with you

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let me share my my presentation hope you

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care you can

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oh sorry

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sorry

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can you see my presentation yes

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okay the presentation looks good we can

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hear you just fine

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well what i'm going to to present today

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is the results of my contribution to the

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to the challenge

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to the second law of thermodynamics that

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i they may i did more than 10 years ago

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and

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for which i i want to acknowledge the

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kind moral support from daniel sheehan

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since then i never come back to this

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research so what you are we will say

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today is more or less a still picture of

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10 years ago

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but i believe

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the results are still interesting and

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worth telling

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well what's this all about

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well i have studied analytically and

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numerically

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this simple and well-known idea

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exploiting the photoelectric effect

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of the black body radiation on materials

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with different work functions

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let me remind briefly what our function

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is

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energy required to extract an electron

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from the bulk of a material to a to its

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surface

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what you see on the left is a sketch

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of a capacitor which have dubbed the

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thermal charger capacitor tcc

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where two plates

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a and b

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are housed inside a vacuum vessel

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and

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are made of the same metal with the

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work function feature

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uh plate b is coated with a

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semiconductor with a mature with a much

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lower work function v1

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and the whole device is

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is at uniform temperature

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but plates amb

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receive photons from the black body

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radiation but being feature the work

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function of the

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of a or the electrode a

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greater than v1 the electrons extracted

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by the photoelectric effect of from from

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the coating of b to plate a

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are more numerous and with a higher

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kinetic energy than those extracted from

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plate a to plate b

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at least at the

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in the yearly phases of the of the

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process

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on the right

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there is a sketch

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of the black body radiation distribution

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this gives

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the split the spectral radiance versus

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the frequency

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well it roughly tells us the number of

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photons with a given energy each node

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in term in the thermal radiation at a

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specific temperature and

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it is easy to to see why more electrons

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are extracted from

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me to a within and with an higher

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kinetic energy

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um all that means that a net flux of

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electrons

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should flow from

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plate b to plate a

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and therefore there should be an

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okay so

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well in the case of an open circuit tcc

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at equilibrium like in in the image on

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the left we expect that

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after a suitable interval time an

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equilibrium potential difference delta v

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is established across the

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the plates

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and at equilibrium delta v

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is necessarily equal to v2

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minus v1 divided by the electron charge

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because only only with that value

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the energy needed by an electron to get

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extracted

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from the coating of b of plate b

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and the rich plate

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becomes equal to to the energy needed by

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an electron to get extracted from plate

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a and reach plate b

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all in this case

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there will be no more imbalance in the

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two fluxes of

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well in the case of a short circuit dcc

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uh on the right

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uh a current i should flow across the

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circuit um and and if the resistance of

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the circuit external to the

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the tcc is negligible and that current

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should be

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equal to the thermionic

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now before getting to

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mata the mathematical numerical

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simulation of a tcc uh let me dwell on

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two objections that could be

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advanced

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i must warn you that this part

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the next

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two slides um

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are a bit involved but i try to keep

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it as simple and short as possible

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it is important to reply to these

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objections

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because if they were correct

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the tcc will not work uh as expected

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and uh to better introduce them these

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two objections uh let me switch to

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a topological ana analog

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of the short circuit dcc on the left

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and it is this uh horseshoe shaped thing

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on right on the right

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the right half of

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the horseshoe

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represents a plate a

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part of plate b and the connecting wire

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with things

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and all this stuff as work function

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equal to feature

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the left

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alpha is the coating of plate b

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and

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it has a work function equal to v1

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in both images

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j2

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indicates the button gap between the

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well it is known that when two materials

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with different work functions in

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particular a metal and an n-type

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semiconductor like in our case

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are physically joined

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a potential difference delta v

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builds up across the content junction j1

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this potential is called the

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content potential

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and it is generated by

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the electrons that are pushed

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from v2 materials

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the yellowish one

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to the

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2 feet 2 materials across the g1

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by thermally driven diffusion forces

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a higher amount of electrons move from

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left to right rather than the other way

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around

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simply because

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it's easier to pull electrons out of a

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lower work function material

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the diffusion process lasts until

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a dynamical equilibrium is reached

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between

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the diffusion forces that push electrons

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to

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and the electric force do they built in

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electric fields

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also in this case the the the potent the

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contact potential delta v is equal to v2

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minus minus v1 divided by the electron

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charge

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and the reason is the reason is the same

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as in the previous slide for the final

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equilibrium

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of the thermionic charging process

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and

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the built-in electric field

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across j1 is roughly equal to the

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contact potential divided by the width

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of the depletion depletion region

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xd

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and naming namely the

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the thin layer across

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j1 where the diffusion of electrons

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has taken place

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well

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it is also

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a while a widely held belief that as

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soon as one joins

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the two halves at g1

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a potential difference equal and

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opposite to the contact potential

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here g1 should instantaneously beats up

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also across the gap j2

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notice that this potential the delta v

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across g2 across the gap

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is not that deriving from the thermionic

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it is intended to

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to be instantaneously generated by the

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movement

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of electrons in the bulk of the

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horseshoe

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and just after the physical contact

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of the materials

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materials

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at j1

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well people expect the potential

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difference across j2 across the gap

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because of an allegedly straightforward

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application of the kishuf

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well what is the problem with that

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well if the potential difference

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were really there across the gap

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then the thermionic charging process

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across g2

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could not even start

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since the delta v

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across j2

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is equal to v2 minus v1 okay

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divided by the electron charge

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and no net electron flux

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from plate b to plate a could be

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possible

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as i ever as i have described before

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the energy required

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uh for an electro to get a structure

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from the plate uh

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from one plate to reach the other

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will be the same

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in this case and incidentally equal to

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v2

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and therefore there will be no

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displacement

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of electrons across j across the gap j2

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and therefore there will be no current

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in the short circuit pcc

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moreover and this is the objection to

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uh even if a net flux of electrons

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were possible across the gap

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still the current will not flow across

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the the wall circuit

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in fact j1 is a metal and type

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semiconductor junction also known as

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shock junction

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and it is known to have a rectifying

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property rectifying properties okay

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under biasing electrons easy flow from

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the semiconductor to the metal

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from left to right across g1 but not

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that easily from the other way around

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from right to left across

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okay let me give a

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short reply to objection one

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well i my stand is that there is no

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instantaneous potential difference

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across the two across the gap j2 caused

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by the physical joining of the materials

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of the two materials

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at j1

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to prove that i applied the basic

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definition of

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potential difference the potential

296
00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:56,079
difference between two points a and b

297
00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:58,399
is defined as minus

298
00:13:02,069 --> 00:12:59,680
okay minus

299
00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:02,079
the work done by the forces acting upon

300
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:02,800
the

301
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:05,440
upon an electron that moves

302
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:08,160
all along the path gamma

303
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:10,639
joining a and b divided by the electron

304
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:12,320
charge

305
00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:14,800
um i do this calculation

306
00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:16,480
along the blue line

307
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:18,160
on the right

308
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:22,399
in the back of the shoe across g1

309
00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:23,920
here

310
00:13:27,829 --> 00:13:25,519
effient

311
00:13:29,829 --> 00:13:27,839
stands for all forcing all the forces

312
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:29,839
acting upon

313
00:13:34,389 --> 00:13:32,240
the elect the test electron

314
00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:34,399
when it moves across

315
00:13:39,269 --> 00:13:36,320
the path gamma

316
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:39,279
uh from equilibrium consideration uh it

317
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:42,240
is clear that f inter the the sum of the

318
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:44,480
two forces or the all the forces acting

319
00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:47,279
upon the detected electron

320
00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:49,120
can be different from zero only across

321
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:51,760
the the junction j1

322
00:13:56,069 --> 00:13:52,560
when

323
00:13:59,189 --> 00:13:56,079
the text electron crosses j1

324
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:59,199
it does feel only two kinds of forces

325
00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:01,279
the diffusion forces pushing to the

326
00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:02,560
right

327
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:04,399
and the electric force

328
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:06,480
due to the built-in electric field

329
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:08,639
pushing to the left

330
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:09,760
um

331
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:12,240
by the way the test electron does feel

332
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:15,360
the diffusion forces exactly like all

333
00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:16,800
the electrons

334
00:14:25,829 --> 00:14:23,269
okay since

335
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:25,839
the the diffusion forces dynamically

336
00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:27,680
sustain the electric field

337
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:29,760
at j1

338
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,120
by the way

339
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:33,600
if i switch it off the diffusion forces

340
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:34,800
at j1

341
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:36,639
the beating electric field will go to

342
00:14:39,670 --> 00:14:38,160
zero

343
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:39,680
so since the diffusion force is

344
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:41,360
dynamically sustained in the electric

345
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:43,360
field the g1 these two forces the

346
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:45,920
electric forces and the diffusion forces

347
00:14:52,389 --> 00:14:49,760
must be always be present across j1

348
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:52,399
and but and also must be equal in

349
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:54,880
opposite equilibrium

350
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:56,160
therefore

351
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:58,240
the total force is equal to zero on

352
00:15:01,829 --> 00:14:59,440
average

353
00:15:04,389 --> 00:15:01,839
and together with the delta v

354
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:04,399
uh between any two points a and b in the

355
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:07,920
back of the in this ocean shaped

356
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:09,760
thing

357
00:15:15,670 --> 00:15:13,440
all that means that physically joining

358
00:15:18,069 --> 00:15:15,680
different materials at j1

359
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:18,079
cannot instantaneously cause any

360
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:19,920
potential drop

361
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:22,320
across the gap

362
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:24,160
that will kill the terminic process from

363
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:28,389
okay

364
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:29,759
let's face

365
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:31,680
objection two

366
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:34,320
we know that every shock junction is

367
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:36,160
characterized by a reverse leakage

368
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:39,199
current that overcome

369
00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:40,959
the rectifying barrier

370
00:15:43,269 --> 00:15:41,920
and

371
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:43,279
that current

372
00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:45,279
may be high or low depending up upon

373
00:15:49,509 --> 00:15:47,360
several factors

374
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:49,519
for instance according to the the

375
00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:50,720
literature

376
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:52,000
it may range

377
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:55,040
from 10 to the 8 to 10 to the minus 2

378
00:16:01,749 --> 00:15:58,399
amps per square centimeter

379
00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:04,550
obviously depends upon the earth's bias

380
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:07,120
but this dependence is quite flat so to

381
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,399
speak

382
00:16:13,269 --> 00:16:10,480
reverse current doesn't change too much

383
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:13,279
with the with the reverse bias

384
00:16:18,550 --> 00:16:15,199
at least below the the

385
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:18,560
breakdown voltage but in our device

386
00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:20,480
we are very far from the breakdown

387
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:22,480
voltage

388
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,399
the reverse leakage current also depends

389
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:26,480
upon the material used in the junction

390
00:16:29,749 --> 00:16:27,510
preparation

391
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:29,759
[Music]

392
00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:31,920
for instance annealing seems to increase

393
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:34,399
the reverse leakage current

394
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:37,120
and it also depends upon the temperature

395
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:39,360
the idea is that the temperature the the

396
00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:41,920
greater is the reverse current

397
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:44,000
and also depends upon the the width of

398
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:47,120
the depletion region xd

399
00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:48,480
since the thinner is the region the

400
00:16:53,189 --> 00:16:50,800
greater is the reverse current due to

401
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:53,199
the tunneling effect

402
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:57,839
so we see that even under a small bias

403
00:17:02,470 --> 00:17:00,000
a non-zero current can cross the

404
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:02,480
junction even in the wrong direction so

405
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:08,390
okay

406
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:10,000
we finally come to my numerical

407
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:12,959
simulation and results

408
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:15,760
i mathematically model it

409
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:17,760
as fact that this is

410
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:19,360
and

411
00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:21,679
for the work function coating

412
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:24,559
i have chosen the silver caesium oxide

413
00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:27,439
photocatal it is a well-known photocatal

414
00:17:30,630 --> 00:17:28,799
material

415
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:30,640
and it is known in the literature to

416
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:33,840
have a work function of nearly 0.7

417
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:36,480
electron volts or 0.8 electro volts

418
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:38,559
the inner and the outer

419
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,400
spheres are made of metal with a work

420
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:42,240
function

421
00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:45,200
equal to 4 electron volts

422
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:48,720
the model of the dcc is 40 centimeters

423
00:17:51,990 --> 00:17:49,679
wide

424
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:52,000
and as you may see

425
00:17:54,789 --> 00:17:53,919
the ratio between the outer and the

426
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:54,799
inner

427
00:18:00,789 --> 00:17:59,039
radius is taken to be equal to two

428
00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:00,799
because it can be proven

429
00:18:05,430 --> 00:18:02,799
that this choices

430
00:18:07,590 --> 00:18:05,440
maximizes the the charging speed for an

431
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:07,600
open circuit dcc

432
00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:10,000
um but the the charging speed is not a

433
00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:12,559
crucial feature here

434
00:18:15,909 --> 00:18:13,840
it's important

435
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:15,919
is the power output of a short circuit

436
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:19,360
vcc uh we show you in a moment

437
00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:21,440
another important parameter is the of

438
00:18:25,110 --> 00:18:23,360
this for the simulation is

439
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:25,120
is the quantum efficiency of the

440
00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:27,039
materials

441
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:29,600
quantum efficiency is roughly the ratio

442
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:31,520
between the the number of electrons

443
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,600
extracted by the radiation

444
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:35,360
and the number of photons impinging on

445
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:37,280
the on the material on the surface of

446
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:38,799
the blades

447
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:41,760
and it is clearly um

448
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:44,960
frequency dependent parameter and i have

449
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:49,120
plugged in the equation only mean values

450
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:52,000
over over frequency

451
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:54,960
and i have used the quite conservative

452
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:58,400
there is for heater one and eta two

453
00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:00,480
according to the literature a more

454
00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:03,200
realistic value for eta one for the the

455
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:05,360
quantum efficiency of the

456
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:07,440
silver system of side coating

457
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:09,760
will be 10 to the minus three

458
00:19:13,909 --> 00:19:10,880
and

459
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:13,919
eta 2 equal to 1

460
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:17,679
is surely not realistic i i

461
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:24,150
that does not exist any material with

462
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:25,760
the work with the quantum mechanics

463
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,909
well sorry

464
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:37,110
um

465
00:19:39,909 --> 00:19:38,480
well

466
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:39,919
my interest at the time of the

467
00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:42,400
simulation was to explore the the worst

468
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,799
case scenario and and to see if a i

469
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:46,559
could i could get something different

470
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:48,559
from zero and

471
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:50,960
it seems to be the case as we i showed

472
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:53,600
you in a moment

473
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:55,679
okay

474
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:58,240
this graph shows the the charging

475
00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:00,799
profile of an open circuit dcc

476
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:03,120
as you may see even with

477
00:20:08,230 --> 00:20:05,520
the previous very conservative value

478
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:08,240
values for quantum efficiency

479
00:20:11,990 --> 00:20:10,159
it is expected to reach a voltage of

480
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:12,000
nearly 0.3

481
00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:14,400
volts in less than 2 hours

482
00:20:18,870 --> 00:20:16,720
more or less

483
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:18,880
with more realistic values for the

484
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:20,640
quantum efficiencies

485
00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:23,200
the same voltage is probably rigid in a

486
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:24,799
few minutes

487
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:27,120
and here you may see uh

488
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:29,760
for the sake of completeness

489
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:31,840
the differential equation that governs

490
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:38,470
okay now let's

491
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:41,200
let's see the more interesting case of a

492
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:43,280
short circuit tcc

493
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:44,320
and

494
00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:47,120
the graph shows the power output

495
00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:49,679
per unit area of the inner sphere

496
00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:52,720
sphere versus the steady state

497
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:55,520
voltage across the vcc and the resistor

498
00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:00,630
by tuning the value of the external

499
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:03,840
resistance r we can maximize the power

500
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,530
output

501
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:06,640
[Music]

502
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:09,360
the maximum is obtained

503
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:15,510
volts across the resistance of the order

504
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:16,400
of

505
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:19,120
10 to the 10 ohms

506
00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:21,600
and the the value of the

507
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:24,720
the power output of this model pcc is of

508
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,760
the order of 10 to the minus for 14

509
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:29,200
watts

510
00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:32,000
this way this value may appear and

511
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:33,840
in fact in fact is

512
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:36,320
a bit disappointing

513
00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:38,159
and

514
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:39,840
the current design

515
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:42,720
surely has no hope to have an immediate

516
00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:45,200
application to the real world

517
00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:47,120
however as i said before the main goal

518
00:21:51,350 --> 00:21:49,280
of this work was to prove the geology

519
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:51,360
the theoretical validity of the basic

520
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:52,720
idea

521
00:21:57,430 --> 00:21:55,039
uh you know i believe that

522
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:57,440
if we can experimentally and

523
00:22:00,549 --> 00:21:59,760
unambiguously confirmed

524
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:00,559
the

525
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:03,840
functioning of this design

526
00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:06,240
we we would have an incentive to study

527
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:07,919
and work on a more

528
00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:14,149
okay let me finish my

529
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:15,919
my presentation

530
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:18,080
with some basic and i'm i'm sure

531
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:21,520
unsurprising prescription for a future

532
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:23,120
experimental test of

533
00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:24,720
this design

534
00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:27,360
in order to to be sure

535
00:22:31,029 --> 00:22:30,159
that the tcc works as expected we we

536
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:31,039
need to

537
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:33,520
to cut every external disturbance like

538
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:35,679
for instance man-made and

539
00:22:40,950 --> 00:22:37,919
natural electromagnetic fields

540
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:40,960
natural reactivity and cosmic particles

541
00:22:43,669 --> 00:22:42,559
and so on

542
00:22:45,909 --> 00:22:43,679
and i am

543
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:45,919
pretty confident that this could be done

544
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:49,360
with proper proper shielding

545
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:50,960
you must also avoid

546
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:53,120
any non-uniformity

547
00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:55,200
of the ambient temperature around the

548
00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:57,200
device and the measuring

549
00:23:02,310 --> 00:22:59,919
instruments in order to prevent

550
00:23:03,669 --> 00:23:02,320
any thermoelectric effect

551
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:03,679
and

552
00:23:09,909 --> 00:23:06,000
also a prescription

553
00:23:11,430 --> 00:23:09,919
peculiar to this case may be that of uh

554
00:23:14,070 --> 00:23:11,440
placing

555
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:14,080
side by side two tcc's identical in

556
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:15,600
every respect

557
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:17,200
exception made for

558
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:20,320
the fact that one does not have the the

559
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:22,720
the lower function coating

560
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:23,840
you know

561
00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:26,880
that prescription should should allow

562
00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:28,799
discriminating between the the real

563
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:30,480
contribution

564
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:32,320
of the terminic emission

565
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:34,080
and the

566
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:36,720
the background noise

567
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:37,840
uh

568
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:40,640
finally just a few words

569
00:23:45,269 --> 00:23:43,200
on the measuring equipment as we have

570
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:45,279
seen in the previous slide the the

571
00:23:48,789 --> 00:23:46,880
magnitude

572
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:48,799
of the resistance in the short circuit

573
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:52,720
dcc must be very high very high

574
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:54,320
to have a

575
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:56,640
measurable volt across the device

576
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,559
and so in order to detect something

577
00:24:01,990 --> 00:24:00,240
different from zero

578
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:02,000
we will need

579
00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:04,080
an ultra high input impedance

580
00:24:09,430 --> 00:24:07,120
electrometer and uh

581
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:09,440
i know that on the market is available

582
00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:13,279
with one hitley 65 14 that

583
00:24:17,669 --> 00:24:15,200
has

584
00:24:22,310 --> 00:24:17,679
an ultra high impedance of the order of

585
00:24:26,310 --> 00:24:24,950
okay here you may see some selected

586
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:26,320
references

587
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:30,480
to my work on the on the tcc and

588
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:31,760
i am finished

589
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:42,470
wonderful thank you germano

590
00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:44,470
okay um

591
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:47,440
you you ended excuse me you ended quite

592
00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:49,440
early so we have a great deal of time

593
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:50,799
for questions

594
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,480
um okay

595
00:25:03,190 --> 00:24:54,240
so

596
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:03,200
would you like to start with questions

597
00:25:08,870 --> 00:25:05,520
uh yes my hand however went up for the

598
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:08,880
last lecture i said i apologize but i

599
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:11,200
think i have an important point perhaps

600
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:13,520
to contribute to the last lecture okay

601
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:16,080
that would be possible sure

602
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:18,240
uh when you're talking about kel when

603
00:25:22,870 --> 00:25:20,640
you're talking about kirschkov's laws

604
00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:22,880
you're in this funny domain between the

605
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:24,400
ee

606
00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:26,400
uh who dropped out of physics because he

607
00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:27,919
couldn't handle the math and the

608
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:30,000
physicists i'm only being very humorous

609
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:31,840
about it but at any rate but i am

610
00:25:35,669 --> 00:25:33,279
serious and that when you're at a

611
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:35,679
circuit kirshkov level

612
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:38,080
uh all of a sudden a bunch of physics

613
00:25:42,549 --> 00:25:40,400
tends to drop away and it's not

614
00:25:44,870 --> 00:25:42,559
considered and in our work at the

615
00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:44,880
intelligent institute we we love this

616
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:46,320
capacitor problem i thought the

617
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:48,559
presentation was incredible and i think

618
00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:50,400
it's going to lead to a lot of important

619
00:25:54,149 --> 00:25:52,720
things at any rate let me get to the

620
00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:54,159
point and that is that when you're doing

621
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:56,240
kirchhoff's law you've got to realize

622
00:26:00,149 --> 00:25:57,679
you're dealing with it across the

623
00:26:01,990 --> 00:26:00,159
resistor or the or any element

624
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:02,000
you have a

625
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:10,799
now we got to remember og electric field

626
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:12,640
uh we really can't talk about we got to

627
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:14,240
talk about the electrons right the

628
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,360
electrons and therefore they're

629
00:26:19,269 --> 00:26:17,600
accelerating faster as they go through

630
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:19,279
the electric field they're not all at

631
00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:22,000
the same speed and some of them can get

632
00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:23,360
quite fast

633
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:24,960
then of course you've got the flow of

634
00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:27,039
like the newton pendulums hitting one

635
00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:29,360
another that kind of a group velocity

636
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:31,840
versus the actual phase phase velocity

637
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:34,000
versus group velocity and then you get a

638
00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:36,320
whole bunch of other electromagnetic

639
00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:38,320
effects and then of course by now you

640
00:26:41,669 --> 00:26:40,240
know i'm a time space guy and so

641
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:41,679
therefore i'm always thinking out of

642
00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:44,400
photons but of a photon is nothing more

643
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,520
than an accelerated charge uh

644
00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:49,279
communicating to another accelerated

645
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:51,039
charge so all i'm saying is that i think

646
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:53,039
if those elements can be brought into

647
00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:55,840
this namely the electric field

648
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:57,760
the uh whatever you i don't believe in

649
00:27:01,590 --> 00:26:59,440
fields but the electric field the the

650
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:01,600
but mainly the effect of of accelerated

651
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,919
charges to accelerated charges we might

652
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:04,960
and of course

653
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,400
all everything you're talking about in

654
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:08,480
thermal is nothing more than accelerated

655
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:10,880
charges talking to accelerated charges

656
00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:12,720
if you can start to think at that model

657
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:15,360
level you're now at a commonality where

658
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,200
this unuseful energy is the same as the

659
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:21,200
so-called useful energy it just has a

660
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:24,240
different time space nature to it and

661
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:25,840
and the way in which these accelerated

662
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,840
charges which we're calling photons

663
00:27:32,389 --> 00:27:29,919
communicate from one charged particle to

664
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:32,399
another so getting back to it kirschkov

665
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:35,360
laws involves fields because the voltage

666
00:27:39,269 --> 00:27:37,679
changes it causes therefore a different

667
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:39,279
speed of the electrons traveling through

668
00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:40,960
these circuits they're not traveling at

669
00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:43,120
the same speed and i would love to see

670
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:44,880
this consideration brought into this

671
00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:48,240
wonderful work and see what comes out

672
00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:50,960
germano would you like to comment

673
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:53,520
okay yes thank you for the questions

674
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:54,799
well

675
00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:56,880
i i i agree with you that

676
00:28:02,210 --> 00:27:59,679
my analysis that you see you may see now

677
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:02,220
on on the screen is probably um

678
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:03,440
[Music]

679
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,360
too simple okay

680
00:28:09,909 --> 00:28:07,600
and i agree with you that we we need to

681
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:09,919
put into the into consideration

682
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:10,799
other

683
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:13,200
factors that

684
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:15,360
may have an effect on

685
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:17,840
on the final results of the

686
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:19,120
calculation

687
00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:21,760
and

688
00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:24,720
for this reason i myself i am i am the

689
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:26,480
first person who

690
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:29,600
in fact do not believe too much to this

691
00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:32,240
calculation to these results which are

692
00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:35,520
mainly theoretical results okay so

693
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:38,000
what i want to stress is try

694
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:38,960
to

695
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:39,840
in

696
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:41,279
physical implement and check

697
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:43,520
experimentally this design in order to

698
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:44,480
see

699
00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:47,200
taking all the prescription i i say

700
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:49,440
before in the last in

701
00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:52,320
the penultimate slide in order to

702
00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:53,760
to be sure that

703
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:57,039
the device work as uh as expected okay

704
00:29:02,710 --> 00:29:00,960
um i agree with the with the robert that

705
00:29:04,389 --> 00:29:02,720
using only uh

706
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:04,399
the cash of law and

707
00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:05,840
neglecting some

708
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:08,080
factors that

709
00:29:11,909 --> 00:29:09,200
they can

710
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:11,919
maybe must be taken into account okay in

711
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:14,320
the calculation of educational law uh

712
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:16,240
could change the picture

713
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:18,640
and this is the reason why i

714
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:20,880
i just presented this this

715
00:29:26,789 --> 00:29:23,039
simple analysis and

716
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:26,799
simulation and medical simulation but

717
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:29,360
my goal my targeting my future target is

718
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:31,440
to to try to

719
00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:34,480
actually test check experimentally okay

720
00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:36,000
the

721
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:40,630
thank you thank you very much for your

722
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:44,240
response but uh this was also primarily

723
00:29:51,830 --> 00:29:47,200
uh to paul uh thibaut and uh if he's

724
00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:52,630
uh

725
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:58,480
think you know a lot of what we've done

726
00:30:02,630 --> 00:30:00,559
really i think was first done kind of in

727
00:30:03,909 --> 00:30:02,640
the optics community where they really

728
00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:03,919
looked at

729
00:30:08,310 --> 00:30:06,559
uh noise and um

730
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:08,320
the different effects that that can

731
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:09,919
happen there and actually sarandra

732
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:11,919
saying it was part of our group is kind

733
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:13,039
of a

734
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:16,480
uh you know skilled in that art and so

735
00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:18,399
um you know i basically i agree with you

736
00:30:22,149 --> 00:30:20,640
and i think that the um

737
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:22,159
you know i think that that field

738
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:23,279
probably

739
00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:26,960
uh can get uh to do more fundamental uh

740
00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:29,360
look at these things

741
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:31,520
thank you

742
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:32,320
okay

743
00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:34,480
thank you um i'd like to call on david

744
00:30:40,389 --> 00:30:35,440
miller

745
00:30:40,399 --> 00:30:46,789
david are you there

746
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:48,070
okay

747
00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:53,679
to do then is just uh kind of wait wait

748
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:57,120
for david to get on i'll i'll exert um

749
00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:59,679
the privilege of the chair um germano i

750
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:01,919
have a couple of questions um concerning

751
00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:04,399
your your talk first of all um

752
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:06,559
the steady state voltage that you're

753
00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:08,240
you're claiming it looks like it's

754
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:12,080
around 30 uh millivolts and that's

755
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:13,440
roughly the thermal

756
00:31:18,389 --> 00:31:15,679
uh voltage that you'd expect from

757
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:18,399
setting kt equals to qv is that

758
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:19,919
coincidence or

759
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:22,240
is there is that is that is there a

760
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,630
well i i believe that

761
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:29,830
i don't know if

762
00:31:33,830 --> 00:31:30,960
there is a

763
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,840
if it is a coincidence but

764
00:32:16,950 --> 00:31:35,360
i

765
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:16,960
okay yeah

766
00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:19,200
yeah we'll just please share that again

767
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:20,399
because i have a

768
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,880
more fun another fundamental question

769
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:24,240
okay this one

770
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:26,880
yeah that's that's good okay so um you

771
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:29,360
you have a a horseshoe here which looks

772
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:31,600
very much like upside down version of

773
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:34,720
horseshoes that i had were using in um

774
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:37,279
and solid state versions of uh

775
00:32:41,190 --> 00:32:38,480
challenges

776
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:41,200
and the junction one that you have here

777
00:32:46,630 --> 00:32:44,399
um would be the depletion region yeah

778
00:32:47,669 --> 00:32:46,640
between two semiconductors and the j2

779
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:47,679
gap

780
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:50,880
um but um you're correct that the that

781
00:32:55,830 --> 00:32:53,120
when when you first join these junctions

782
00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:55,840
that the in the upper junction j2 you

783
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:58,240
don't initially immediately get charges

784
00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:00,480
but in the end you have to

785
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:02,320
um and that's that's demanded by

786
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:04,559
faraday's law or conservation of energy

787
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:06,399
kirchhoff's law in other words if you

788
00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:08,320
wish if you take a if you take an

789
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:11,600
integral around a closed loop

790
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:14,000
the electric field

791
00:33:17,669 --> 00:33:15,600
net electric field around a closed loop

792
00:33:19,029 --> 00:33:17,679
line integral has to be zero so if you

793
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:19,039
have an electric field here you have to

794
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:20,480
have electric field somewhere else in

795
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:22,159
the system it can't be in the bolt

796
00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:23,440
because that would drive a current

797
00:33:28,789 --> 00:33:25,600
therefore it has to be across the gap

798
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:28,799
so straight faraday straight maxwell's

799
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:31,120
equations demands that that in steady

800
00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:32,960
state you have to have charges here on

801
00:33:37,029 --> 00:33:34,159
the gap you have to have an electric

802
00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:37,039
field here but more than that

803
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:39,120
the electric field has been measured by

804
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:40,880
multiple groups around the world i've

805
00:33:44,310 --> 00:33:43,360
i've built these these these junction

806
00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:44,320
gaps

807
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:46,399
in semiconductors and multiple

808
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,840
independent groups have measured the

809
00:33:51,269 --> 00:33:49,679
electric field so in fact there is an

810
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:51,279
electric field here and that's

811
00:33:54,549 --> 00:33:52,480
experimentally determined and

812
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:54,559
analytically required if you believe

813
00:33:57,990 --> 00:33:56,320
maxwell's equations

814
00:33:59,590 --> 00:33:58,000
so um i don't know how you want to

815
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:59,600
respond if you can respond to that i'd

816
00:34:05,029 --> 00:34:01,679
appreciate it well

817
00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:08,550
what i've i have shown here is that

818
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:10,960
half of the application of a kirchhoff

819
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:11,760
law

820
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:13,280
i

821
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:19,200
shoe

822
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:21,679
we can extend this

823
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:24,639
integral to become a circular integral

824
00:34:27,829 --> 00:34:27,040
across the in general okay

825
00:34:30,149 --> 00:34:27,839
and

826
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,159
but i think that what i have shown here

827
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:32,639
the fact that the

828
00:34:37,829 --> 00:34:34,800
the work done by all the forces acting

829
00:34:39,669 --> 00:34:37,839
upon the text electron across j1 is

830
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:39,679
still the same also in the in the case

831
00:34:43,589 --> 00:34:42,159
of a circular of um

832
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:43,599
closer the

833
00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:44,960
integrals okay

834
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:45,760
and

835
00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:48,960
you should

836
00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:50,000
according

837
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:53,200
this is my my position okay

838
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:55,679
should be also equal to zero because you

839
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:58,320
see it is equal to zero the the the work

840
00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:00,640
the the wall work the overall work done

841
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:03,599
by all the forces across j1 okay and

842
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:05,760
because in in the balance of

843
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:06,720
in

844
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:12,000
the electric force due to the the built

845
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:15,280
in electric field across j1 but also

846
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:17,680
the diffusion forces that must be always

847
00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:19,520
there

848
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:22,000
must be always present and the forces

849
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:23,839
the diffusion forces

850
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:25,920
should be equal and opposite to the the

851
00:35:32,150 --> 00:35:29,040
electric field across j1 because

852
00:35:35,349 --> 00:35:32,160
if one is if one could switch could

853
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:35,359
switch off the these diffusion forces

854
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:37,359
the built-in electric field will go to

855
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:40,560
zero immediately okay yeah

856
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:42,800
i am i agree with you that

857
00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:45,760
the electric field has been

858
00:35:50,630 --> 00:35:47,520
measured

859
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:50,640
yeah

860
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:51,520
i'm

861
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:53,920
now thinking of of the

862
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:56,640
the use of the kelvin kelvin probe

863
00:36:01,670 --> 00:35:59,280
system to to to measure the this field

864
00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:01,680
probably right well the kelvin probes

865
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:04,160
were used to measure yeah that j2

866
00:36:08,470 --> 00:36:06,240
electric field the thing is though is in

867
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:08,480
terms of the forces in the in the in the

868
00:36:13,589 --> 00:36:11,280
lower gap j1 okay

869
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:13,599
you have i mean the electric field that

870
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:14,880
builds up there in the first place is

871
00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:16,480
due to diffusion cross-diffusion of

872
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:17,920
charges at least in the semiconductor

873
00:36:21,109 --> 00:36:18,960
case

874
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:21,119
and and in terms of diffusion forces if

875
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:22,560
you're talking about brownian motion

876
00:36:25,430 --> 00:36:24,000
that that's uh

877
00:36:27,510 --> 00:36:25,440
that average force is zero and you have

878
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:27,520
to do a time average of it which gives

879
00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:29,760
you zero there so um that needs to be

880
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:31,680
this this has to be done delicately this

881
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:34,320
uh this internal force

882
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:35,520
so i think you'll find the average

883
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:38,320
diffusive force um is either zero the

884
00:36:41,349 --> 00:36:39,520
way you're if you're if i'm

885
00:36:42,470 --> 00:36:41,359
understanding it correctly or else is

886
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:42,480
being double counted because the

887
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:43,920
electric field of the built-in the

888
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:46,240
built-in electric field is the result of

889
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:53,109
okay and diffusion force necessarily

890
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:55,040
transient because you know electrons

891
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:56,160
move from one side to the other and then

892
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:57,280
you have a counter potential that

893
00:37:02,310 --> 00:36:59,440
cancels out the initial potential

894
00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:02,320
difference so then at like long times

895
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:04,400
you'd expect no diffusion force

896
00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:06,800
well yeah i i'm just kind of i'm fuzzy

897
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:08,800
on what the diffusion force is here the

898
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:10,960
electric the built-in uh potential at

899
00:37:14,069 --> 00:37:12,960
least when it comes to semiconductors

900
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:14,079
they're not talking about metals here

901
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:16,240
but semiconductors is the result of

902
00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:18,320
diffusion in the first place right

903
00:37:21,349 --> 00:37:19,920
you're you're trading electrostatic

904
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:21,359
you're trading chemical potential

905
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:23,119
difference for electrostatic potential

906
00:37:25,750 --> 00:37:24,480
difference there

907
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:25,760
so if you're throwing in another

908
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:27,119
diffusion force that would be a

909
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:29,440
fluctuating force which has a time

910
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:31,119
average of zero as you're saying i

911
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:34,079
believe that that's correct yeah so

912
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:36,160
anyways it's an interesting proposal and

913
00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:37,599
i think yeah the measurements should be

914
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:39,119
made yeah

915
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:42,000
definitely yeah

916
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:44,000
for the medals yeah

917
00:37:47,030 --> 00:37:45,200
so

918
00:37:48,790 --> 00:37:47,040
other other questions on david are you

919
00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:48,800
back

920
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:52,000
sorry hands up garrett i think you were

921
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:54,320
yeah you had your hands up too damn

922
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:56,880
uh david put his question in the chat

923
00:38:02,230 --> 00:37:58,960
because his mic isn't working

924
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:02,240
uh he he says can um

925
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:04,720
jomano please address how much current

926
00:38:10,310 --> 00:38:08,480
would go up with increased temperature

927
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:10,320
okay thank you okay

928
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:11,280
okay

929
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:12,480
well

930
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:16,240
i have in the simulation i have done uh

931
00:38:20,069 --> 00:38:18,640
i used also i made the calculation also

932
00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:20,079
for uh

933
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:22,079
three for two factor different

934
00:38:26,510 --> 00:38:23,280
temperature

935
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,520
uh 300 kelvin 20 to

936
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:28,800
296 kelvin

937
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:31,280
in order to give an idea an ink of how

938
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:32,800
his uh

939
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:35,200
in this case the voltage across the the

940
00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:36,960
open circuit necessity

941
00:38:43,829 --> 00:38:41,440
uh change with temperature and um

942
00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:43,839
well i didn't

943
00:38:47,829 --> 00:38:44,960
i didn't

944
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:47,839
do they has called the calculation

945
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:49,280
about the the

946
00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:50,640
current

947
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:56,150
well i i don't know but

948
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:57,920
i don't know how the dependence of the

949
00:39:01,990 --> 00:39:00,480
current is with temperature uh i should

950
00:39:05,349 --> 00:39:02,000
may i should

951
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:05,359
redo the calculation in order to see

952
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:08,000
how the the current across the the short

953
00:39:11,910 --> 00:39:10,000
circuit cc change with the with the

954
00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:11,920
temperature

955
00:39:18,390 --> 00:39:15,119
but i believe that the

956
00:39:19,829 --> 00:39:18,400
the trend is similar to this factor uh

957
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:19,839
multiplying the

958
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:20,800
the

959
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:22,800
this this equation okay

960
00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:24,320
so it

961
00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:27,280
should scale with the the third power of

962
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:31,670
okay

963
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:33,280
good

964
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:34,720
other questions

965
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:36,720
garrett did you have a question

966
00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:37,680
yes

967
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:40,880
um so you talk about power but then you

968
00:39:46,230 --> 00:39:43,599
also mentioned needing to use a very

969
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:46,240
high impedance volt meter to measure

970
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:47,680
this and

971
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:50,720
kelvin probe another example

972
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:53,280
i like to think of

973
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:56,640
two types of second law violations the

974
00:40:02,310 --> 00:39:58,000
the

975
00:40:03,829 --> 00:40:02,320
violation

976
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:03,839
and so

977
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:06,640
for me a soft violation would be

978
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:09,119
where you produce a potential difference

979
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:10,720
but you're not actually getting work out

980
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:12,000
of it

981
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:13,040
and

982
00:40:16,390 --> 00:40:14,560
i wonder

983
00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:16,400
is this

984
00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:20,160
perhaps a soft violation in which you're

985
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:22,720
distorting something but it's not clear

986
00:40:28,309 --> 00:40:25,280
that we could get substantial continuous

987
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,309
okay um

988
00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:32,880
well i mean that

989
00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:39,589
a cd current should flow across the

990
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:41,680
resistor so

991
00:40:47,190 --> 00:40:44,480
even if it is a tiny power output it

992
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:47,200
should be a continuous uh

993
00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:49,680
power electrical power output

994
00:40:55,589 --> 00:40:53,280
and what they this is how i see

995
00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:55,599
the behavior of this pcc

996
00:40:58,470 --> 00:40:56,720
uh

997
00:41:00,230 --> 00:40:58,480
these two spheres

998
00:41:02,790 --> 00:41:00,240
subtract uh

999
00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:02,800
thermal energy from the the hermitage

1000
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:06,800
and transform this thermal energy in a

1001
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:09,040
current that claw that passed across the

1002
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:12,160
resistor so i believe that it is uh i i

1003
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:16,720
think that if this uh design works

1004
00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:19,359
probably it works

1005
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,400
violating

1006
00:41:24,069 --> 00:41:22,480
in a strong way the second law of

1007
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:24,079
thermodynamic

1008
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:27,760
this is my my

1009
00:41:32,309 --> 00:41:30,079
my idea

1010
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:34,790
the problem with this design is as you

1011
00:41:41,030 --> 00:41:37,839
may see is the the the very teeny tiny

1012
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:41,040
power output that is

1013
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:42,480
too close to the

1014
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:45,760
the background noise to be detected and

1015
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:49,440
in an ambiguously uh

1016
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:51,040
detected

1017
00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:53,280
it's a it's an interesting issue how

1018
00:41:55,109 --> 00:41:54,240
much

1019
00:41:57,750 --> 00:41:55,119
power

1020
00:42:00,470 --> 00:41:57,760
can really be obtained or if nature is

1021
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:00,480
is kind of limiting this to these small

1022
00:42:04,790 --> 00:42:02,800
numbers for example even with

1023
00:42:05,589 --> 00:42:04,800
paul thibodeau's earlier calculation

1024
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:05,599
about

1025
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:09,520
getting power out from a diode and

1026
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:12,720
daniel's epicatalysis and so on is there

1027
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:13,680
some

1028
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:16,240
limit that nature has to uh

1029
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:17,760
non-linearity

1030
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:19,119
it ends up

1031
00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:21,280
saying yeah you can violate this but

1032
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:24,240
just very soft yeah yeah yeah

1033
00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:26,880
i i guess i i the soft and hard

1034
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:29,119
violation i think is i

1035
00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:30,800
i'm wondering whether that's somewhat of

1036
00:42:34,710 --> 00:42:32,560
a red herring um

1037
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:34,720
in in the sense that

1038
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:36,240
there's more than one way to skin a cat

1039
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:39,760
i mean if you're if if

1040
00:42:41,910 --> 00:42:41,040
it may look

1041
00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:41,920
more

1042
00:42:46,309 --> 00:42:44,640
in

1043
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:46,319
and then you probably should consider

1044
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:48,480
thermal noise then nyquist or johnson

1045
00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:51,040
noise to to compete here but on the

1046
00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:53,520
other hand if you go again back to that

1047
00:42:56,309 --> 00:42:54,960
slide five

1048
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:56,319
there's more than there are other ways

1049
00:43:02,150 --> 00:42:59,440
of extracting that energy and

1050
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:02,160
there have been propositions for in the

1051
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:04,720
semiconductor case of using the gap two

1052
00:43:07,829 --> 00:43:05,920
electric fields to drive

1053
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:07,839
electromechanical devices

1054
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,560
and and detailed numerical simulations

1055
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:13,119
indicate that that's feasible

1056
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:15,280
and so what may look like a soft

1057
00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:17,520
violation in one

1058
00:43:21,430 --> 00:43:19,839
in some light if you cast it in a

1059
00:43:23,750 --> 00:43:21,440
different light a different kind of work

1060
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:23,760
extraction it becomes the soft violation

1061
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:34,150
i also think zero is just the most

1062
00:43:39,030 --> 00:43:36,880
fundamental limit on work extraction so

1063
00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:39,040
if you can extract anything it seems

1064
00:43:41,829 --> 00:43:40,240
at this point it's no longer a

1065
00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:41,839
fundamental physics problem it's just a

1066
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:44,960
matter of engineering you know i think

1067
00:43:47,589 --> 00:43:46,319
history shows that we started with all

1068
00:43:49,510 --> 00:43:47,599
these small effects over and over in

1069
00:43:51,190 --> 00:43:49,520
physics with enough kind of money being

1070
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:51,200
put on a problem you know we have these

1071
00:43:55,510 --> 00:43:53,760
drastic increases right if you just kind

1072
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:55,520
of bound this once you get over that

1073
00:43:57,910 --> 00:43:56,880
initial violation

1074
00:44:00,230 --> 00:43:57,920
sure

1075
00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:00,240
yeah like for instance some of the more

1076
00:44:03,750 --> 00:44:02,240
recent epic catalysis

1077
00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:03,760
experiments with

1078
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:06,400
with david miller here at usd those are

1079
00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:08,960
putting out milliwatts now um that's

1080
00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:11,040
that's not i mean it's not large but

1081
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:12,880
it's more than picowatts

1082
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:16,480
and milliwatts are are easily measurable

1083
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:17,200
so

1084
00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:19,200
it's no longer a quantum fluctuation no

1085
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:28,230
okay other questions um i'm having a

1086
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:30,000
hard time seeing everyone's hand here so

1087
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:31,599
if you have a question please just jump

1088
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:33,520
in and we'll sort it out

1089
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:34,400
okay

1090
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:36,960
i have a question to paul tibaldo

1091
00:44:39,670 --> 00:44:38,480
to raise this

1092
00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:39,680
um

1093
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:42,720
and and uh my question is two question

1094
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:44,400
or three questions

1095
00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:45,440
even

1096
00:44:50,150 --> 00:44:47,359
uh

1097
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:50,160
first question how high is the voltage

1098
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:57,109
uh

1099
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:59,119
hey hey

1100
00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,000
um

1101
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,400
okay did you want to do this okay hold

1102
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:04,160
on a second you said time this way

1103
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:06,640
daniel sorry yeah yeah um so let's let's

1104
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:08,800
border here hold on hold on a second

1105
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:11,040
paul are there any are there anything

1106
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:13,760
are there any questions uh of any

1107
00:45:19,349 --> 00:45:15,680
further questions

1108
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:19,359
for um germano brumo

1109
00:45:32,550 --> 00:45:23,510
okay

1110
00:45:34,230 --> 00:45:32,560
so

1111
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,240
uh i'm not sure i quite followed the

1112
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:36,400
question so the so the so the graphing

1113
00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:38,640
the small capacitor

1114
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:41,280
uh has an average voltage of zero but it

1115
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:44,800
does have large voltage fluctuations

1116
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:46,800
and if you make that capacitance smaller

1117
00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:48,000
and smaller then the voltage

1118
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:50,560
fluctuations rise this is kind of a

1119
00:45:56,069 --> 00:45:53,440
well-known phenomenon in fact you see it

1120
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:56,079
in the semiconductor industry if you

1121
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:57,839
make these chips

1122
00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:00,000
and you make really small capacitors on

1123
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:02,880
these chips you have to be aware of the

1124
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:04,800
the large voltage noise that gets

1125
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:07,280
generated by them

1126
00:46:11,710 --> 00:46:09,520
so i mean the extra energy in this

1127
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:11,720
circuit comes from the

1128
00:46:17,829 --> 00:46:15,920
fluctuations of of the graphene

1129
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:17,839
layer isn't it

1130
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,800
okay

1131
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:20,079
yes

1132
00:46:23,589 --> 00:46:22,000
because as i looked at this at your

1133
00:46:26,069 --> 00:46:23,599
presentation

1134
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:26,079
at the very beginning you were you told

1135
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:26,880
that

1136
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:28,090
the um

1137
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:31,200
[Music]

1138
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:34,079
that the fluctuations of the graphene

1139
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:36,960
would change the capacity

1140
00:46:43,109 --> 00:46:41,520
of the capacitor so that the um so that

1141
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:43,119
the um

1142
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:46,079
the electrons would be drawn from the

1143
00:46:50,230 --> 00:46:46,880
um

1144
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:50,240
from this battery in one or another

1145
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:52,640
direction depending on

1146
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:55,520
um yeah the direction right

1147
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:56,960
and um

1148
00:47:01,829 --> 00:46:59,040
actually

1149
00:47:03,990 --> 00:47:01,839
this would be drawing the um electron

1150
00:47:07,750 --> 00:47:04,000
from the battery and

1151
00:47:09,670 --> 00:47:07,760
uh transporting it to the capacitor

1152
00:47:11,190 --> 00:47:09,680
all right okay yeah great okay i i'm

1153
00:47:13,190 --> 00:47:11,200
with you now so that's more in the

1154
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:13,200
deterministic case

1155
00:47:18,230 --> 00:47:15,119
we've done an extremely detailed

1156
00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:18,240
analysis of the deterministic case

1157
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:19,119
and

1158
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:21,599
that battery if you if you imagine

1159
00:47:26,549 --> 00:47:24,480
replacing that battery with a capacitor

1160
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:26,559
it's easier to visualize

1161
00:47:30,549 --> 00:47:28,880
then a little bit of charge comes off on

1162
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:30,559
the forward direction

1163
00:47:34,710 --> 00:47:32,480
and then a little bit of charge goes

1164
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:34,720
back onto the capacitor in the reverse

1165
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:37,200
direction and if it's a loss list if

1166
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:40,079
it's a very low loss system then you

1167
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:43,040
won't lose any of that charge over time

1168
00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:45,359
and so and in a detailed analysis and

1169
00:47:48,549 --> 00:47:47,680
this includes not only from physics but

1170
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:48,559
from

1171
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:50,960
uh kind of the state-of-the-art in

1172
00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:53,520
in engineering um

1173
00:47:57,270 --> 00:47:54,960
circuit analysis

1174
00:47:59,589 --> 00:47:57,280
that battery contributes none of the

1175
00:48:02,549 --> 00:47:59,599
power in fact it's whatever is turning

1176
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:02,559
the capacitor if you think of a windmill

1177
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,400
it's whatever is turning the windmill

1178
00:48:07,589 --> 00:48:06,400
that's the origin of power

1179
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:07,599
it's not

1180
00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:08,559
the

1181
00:48:13,510 --> 00:48:10,880
that's

1182
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:13,520
present in the system or the or in that

1183
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:15,200
case maybe a magnetic field that's

1184
00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:16,640
present in a system the power isn't

1185
00:48:19,270 --> 00:48:17,680
coming from that it's coming from

1186
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:19,280
whatever is turning

1187
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:20,400
that

1188
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:23,040
windmill or in this case the capacitor

1189
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:24,000
okay

1190
00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:26,319
but you need if this battery is

1191
00:48:32,069 --> 00:48:29,920
accumulator and not a common normal

1192
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:32,079
normal battery

1193
00:48:37,589 --> 00:48:34,559
and you want to

1194
00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:37,599
use this um charge you need an initial

1195
00:48:42,309 --> 00:48:39,839
charge in this accumulator

1196
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:42,319
to um to

1197
00:48:47,990 --> 00:48:45,440
to make it move you through the

1198
00:48:50,950 --> 00:48:48,000
vibration of

1199
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:50,960
of the um of the layer of the graphene

1200
00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:51,839
layer

1201
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:52,800
isn't it

1202
00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:55,280
i'm looking at it as a as an electronic

1203
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:58,000
engineer as a circuit this is circuit

1204
00:49:03,870 --> 00:48:59,760
and you have a

1205
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:03,880
battery the battery if it is more than

1206
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:08,240
0.7 voltage so it at the at the first

1207
00:49:14,549 --> 00:49:10,960
moment when you switch the circuit

1208
00:49:19,349 --> 00:49:14,559
the electron comes and charging through

1209
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:19,359
the diode d1 the capacitor c1

1210
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:26,870
what what really happens is um it the

1211
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:30,079
battery charges the graphing capacitor

1212
00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:31,839
up to the voltage and it's a small

1213
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:34,079
capacitor so it takes almost no charge

1214
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:36,319
to do that and then the voltage is zero

1215
00:49:41,030 --> 00:49:37,280
now

1216
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:41,040
so almost nothing goes into c1

1217
00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:43,599
now as you rotate it there's an ac

1218
00:49:47,670 --> 00:49:46,240
current that's on top of this

1219
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:47,680
voltage that's sitting there on the

1220
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:50,319
graphene this is the ac current which is

1221
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:51,599
charging it

1222
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:54,480
okay so this capacitor

1223
00:49:59,990 --> 00:49:57,680
c0 is graphing is very small you mean

1224
00:50:02,470 --> 00:50:00,000
okay well yes yes exactly

1225
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:02,480
okay okay let's wrap it good i'd like to

1226
00:50:07,190 --> 00:50:04,160
redirect back to

1227
00:50:10,309 --> 00:50:07,200
um germano germano are you still here

1228
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:10,319
okay thank you yeah um yeah yeah so

1229
00:50:14,230 --> 00:50:12,480
germano i'd like to address another

1230
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:14,240
question if i may just to redirect

1231
00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:16,000
things to this talk um have you

1232
00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:17,839
considered the situation when you have a

1233
00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:19,359
plasma present

1234
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:21,440
um which can release space charge

1235
00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:26,470
well uh

1236
00:50:31,109 --> 00:50:29,200
actually no i didn't consider

1237
00:50:33,510 --> 00:50:31,119
the presence of plasma

1238
00:50:36,230 --> 00:50:33,520
okay in my design

1239
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:36,240
uh you are uh alluding to the space

1240
00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:39,680
charge uh between the plates yeah

1241
00:50:43,109 --> 00:50:41,359
yeah

1242
00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:43,119
okay no i did i didn't take into account

1243
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:45,280
this part but i i

1244
00:50:49,510 --> 00:50:47,680
i know that this should be probably

1245
00:50:52,309 --> 00:50:49,520
included in the in the numerical

1246
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:52,319
simulation because the

1247
00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:55,040
the presence of the space space charge

1248
00:51:02,390 --> 00:50:56,720
um

1249
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:02,400
of an open circuit dcc uh

1250
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:04,800
but i have not included this the

1251
00:51:09,030 --> 00:51:07,520
presence of these charges

1252
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:09,040
between the players in the in the

1253
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:11,680
equation in the charging equation

1254
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:13,119
okay

1255
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:15,520
and um in terms of power densities do

1256
00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:16,480
you have

1257
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:18,559
any any estimates or

1258
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:20,079
feeling for what kind of power densities

1259
00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:22,000
you could achieve if you had small

1260
00:51:25,349 --> 00:51:23,839
enough devices the ones you're proposing

1261
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:25,359
may be fairly large but if you can

1262
00:51:28,220 --> 00:51:27,680
miniaturize them

1263
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:28,230
well

1264
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:29,680
[Music]

1265
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:31,920
let me share again my

1266
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:34,240
my presentation because i want to show

1267
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:35,440
you

1268
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:38,480
well the the last graph

1269
00:51:41,109 --> 00:51:39,520
this one

1270
00:51:42,630 --> 00:51:41,119
is actually

1271
00:51:45,589 --> 00:51:42,640
the the

1272
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:45,599
sort of specific or power

1273
00:51:50,710 --> 00:51:48,000
watts per square centimeter

1274
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:50,720
that can be obtained with the

1275
00:51:56,069 --> 00:51:53,040
with the previous with design

1276
00:51:59,030 --> 00:51:56,079
that i have shown in my presentation and

1277
00:52:00,710 --> 00:51:59,040
also with the the equations

1278
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:00,720
not taking into account

1279
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:03,040
all the things we have just all the

1280
00:52:05,829 --> 00:52:04,960
suggestions

1281
00:52:07,990 --> 00:52:05,839
you

1282
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:08,000
gave me but

1283
00:52:12,950 --> 00:52:09,520
i i

1284
00:52:15,190 --> 00:52:12,960
do not have much hope to have

1285
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:15,200
power i power with many small devices

1286
00:52:20,069 --> 00:52:18,000
because as you may see the specific or

1287
00:52:22,230 --> 00:52:20,079
the power density of the

1288
00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:22,240
for this specific design is of the order

1289
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:23,920
10 to the minus

1290
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:25,760
17 so

1291
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:27,839
in order to have a microscopic

1292
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:30,960
production power we we should need not a

1293
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:34,160
huge tcc but

1294
00:52:37,990 --> 00:52:36,480
moderately small pcc

1295
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:38,000
connected together

1296
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,200
um

1297
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:41,520
in series or

1298
00:52:45,190 --> 00:52:42,400
one

1299
00:52:52,230 --> 00:52:48,630
i think that this design cannot be

1300
00:52:54,230 --> 00:52:52,240
mean naturalized okay okay

1301
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:54,240
right affordable country

1302
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:57,280
okay well thank you um are there other

1303
00:53:06,309 --> 00:53:02,390
okay well we're coming to the end of the

1304
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:06,319
the hour and i believe lunch uh is next

1305
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:08,400
is that right uh gareth

1306
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:10,240
okay so i think we'll have maybe a few

1307
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:13,440
minute jump on on that but let's let's

1308
00:53:18,630 --> 00:53:15,920
uh thank uh dr dabramo again thank you

1309
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,640
for uh for a stimulating talk thanks